Announce: Enhanced Digital Output app - USB Dac and 192k Digital Ouput

[Triode]

I've posted a new applet to the 3rd party apps list for Squeezebox
Touch. This is designed to enhance the digital output capabilities of
the device for use with external Dacs. It is based on the software
which people have helped me test on the "Async USB Dac Experiments"
thread but should now be suitable for less experienced users to
install.

The app should add support of the following to your Squeezebox Touch:
- External USB dacs using either USB audio class 1 or 2 protocols [USB 1
dacs normally state they support up to 96k sample rates, USB 2 dacs
normally state up to 192k]
- Support of 176 and 192k playback via the standard digital output

There are a number of limitations to be aware of:
1) USB 1 dacs which operate in asynchronous mode probably need an
external high speed hub to work without "clicks" - this is due to what
appears to be a limitation in the Touch hardware. It is completely
resolved with a cheap (<$10) bus powered hub connected between the dac
and squeezebox. There is a workaround option which works with some dacs
if a hub is not used, but it limits playback to 44/48k sample rates. At
present is has only been proved to work with Audiolab/Lakewest dacs.
2) USB support does not yet support hot plugging of usb dacs - please
connect your dac and leave turned on at present [this is likely to
improve in future]
3) 192k playback requires a dac which supports it and is only supported
with flac files using native decoding at present. [In future 7.8 LMS
and firmware should support 192k wav streaming] It will also require
sufficient bandwidth on your network.
4) Only one output can be selected at once, this means when a USB dac or
the Digital Output are selected there will be no sound on the analog
outputs.

The app is called "Enhanced Digital Output" and is the main 3rd party
apps list.

To install, please following the following steps:
1) Go to Apps Gallery -> 3rd Party Apps on the touch screen
2) Deselect the "recommended applets only" option, so that you see a
longer list of apps
3) Select "Enhanced Digital Output" and select it for installation
4) Your touch should download the app, reboot, then download a new
custom linux kernel and reboot again
5) You should now get a list of possible output devices - this should
include "Digital Output" and your USB Dac if it is plugged in, select
the appropriate output
6) Touch should reboot again and then be ready to start playing with the
selected output

If you want to change the output go to Setting > Audio Settings >
Digital Output; if you want to change some of the advanced options go to
Settings > Advanced > Digital Output

Please note that if you perform a firmware update, then the app and
kernel will need to be reinstalled, this should be automated just
requiring you to install the app again or to have the "reinstall after
update" option selected from the 3rd party apps list.

Please post your feedback on this thread - I would like to create a list
of USB DACs which are known to work with it, we started that on the
experiment thread, but I think it would be cleaner to maintain a list
here.


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[stereoptic]

Triode wrote:
> I've posted a new applet to the 3rd party apps list for Squeezebox
> Touch. .....
This is exciting news! I don't presently have any 192k files with which
to test this yet, though.


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[leoduran]

So instead, I tried: "Settings->Advanced->App Installer"... And from
there, deselected the "Recommended applets only" option, but I do not
get "Enhanced Digital Output" as an option.

Ummh, am I doing something wrong?
Thanks.


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[Triode]

leoduran wrote:
> So instead, I tried: "Settings->Advanced->App Installer"... And from
> there, deselected the "Recommended applets only" option, but I do not
> get "Enhanced Digital Output" as an option.
>
> Ummh, am I doing something wrong?
> Thanks.

Needs to be a squeezeobox touch running 7.7.x firmware - could it be
that you have older firmware?


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[leoduran]

Triode wrote:
> Needs to be a squeezeobox touch running 7.7.x firmware - could it be
> that you have older firmware?
I suppose you're right... Here's what I've done so far:
1) Went back to factory settings
2) As prompted, performed a "Software Update" to: 7.7.2r9663
3) Having done that, I do get the option for:App Gallery->3rd Party
Apps
4) So, I then follow the installation procedure for the "Enahanced
Digital Output" app (selecting the "reinstall app after update" option)
5) After rebooting, I selected the "Anedio D2" USB DAC (which was
plugged in)
6) I can now select music using the iPad (SqueezePad app), but the Touch
is prompting me for a "Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377
7) But, if I select that "Software Update", I no longer get these
options: (a) App Gallery->3rd Party Apps (b) Settings -> Audio Settings
-> Digital Output
(NOTE: prior to doing the "Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377, I had
selected the "reinstall app after update" option)
8) Also, "Settings->Adavanced->Software Update" only shows "7.5.3r9377"
as an option

So, the only way I'm able to stay connected to the USB DAC is by
selecting music from the iPad app, while the Touch keeps prompting for a
"Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377 (as described by step #6)
Thanks.


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[Triode]

leoduran wrote:
> I suppose you're right... Here's what I've done so far:
> 1) Went back to factory settings
> 2) As prompted, performed a "Software Update" to: 7.7.2r9663
> 3) Having done that, I do get the option for:App Gallery->3rd Party
> Apps
> 4) So, I then follow the installation procedure for the "Enahanced
> Digital Output" app (selecting the "reinstall app after update" option)
> 5) After rebooting, I selected the "Anedio D2" USB DAC (which was
> plugged in)
> 6) I can now select & play music using the iPad (SqueezePad app), while
> the Touch is prompting me for a "Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377
> 7) But, if I select that "Software Update", the USB DAC connection is
> gone, and I no longer get these options: (a) App Gallery->3rd Party Apps
> (b) Settings -> Audio Settings -> Digital Output
> (NOTE: prior to doing the "Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377, I had
> selected the "reinstall app after update" option)
> 8) Also, "Settings->Advanced->Software Update" only shows "7.5.3r9377"
> as an option
>
> So, the only way I'm able to stay connected to the USB DAC is by
> selecting music from the iPad app, while the Touch keeps prompting for a
> "Software Update" to: 7.5.3r9377 (as described by step #6)
> Thanks.

You either need to update your server software to 7.7 or to ignore the
firmware update to 7.5.3 message [this is downgrading the firmware] by
swiping right on the update screen and not selecting it. The new code
is only tested with firmware 7.7 and later and so I want to make sure
you have this firmware installed. Its likely that this will work with
older server software, but its far more preferable to update the server
software.


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[leoduran]

Triode wrote:
> You either need to update your server software to 7.7 or to ignore the
> firmware update to 7.5.3 message [this is downgrading the firmware] by
> swiping right on the update screen and not selecting it. The new code
> is only tested with firmware 7.7 and later and so I want to make sure
> you have this firmware installed. Its likely that this will work with
> older server software, but its far more preferable to update the server
> software.
OK, I'll try upgrading the server side... Right now I'm running with:
Version: 7.5.3 - r31792
Thanks for doing such a great job so far... I'm looking forward to a
"clean" way of using Async USB at 24/192K.


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[Triode]

leoduran wrote:
> OK, I'll try upgrading the server side... Right now I'm running with:
> Version: 7.5.3 - r31792
> Thanks for doing such a great job so far... I'm looking forward to a
> "clean" way of using Async USB at 24/192K.

This is an XMOS based USB class 2 dac?


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[leoduran]

Triode wrote:
> This is an XMOS based USB class 2 dac?
Yes, it is... D2 info:
http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/d2_overview
There's also a separate USB-to-SPDIF converter based on the same XMOS
design... U2 info: http://www.anedio.com/index.php/product/u2_overview


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[leoduran]

Triode wrote:
> You either need to update your server software to 7.7 or to ignore the
> firmware update to 7.5.3 message [this is downgrading the firmware] by
> swiping right on the update screen and not selecting it. The new code
> is only tested with firmware 7.7 and later and so I want to make sure
> you have this firmware installed. Its likely that this will work with
> older server software, but its far more preferable to update the server
> software.
Triode,
After what seemed like forever, I finally managed to update


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[mftech]

stereoptic wrote:
> This is exciting news! I don't presently have any 192k files with which
> to test this yet, though.

Check here : http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-testfiles.aspx


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[cfraser]

Has anybody mentioned (or even found) that when set up for USB DAC that
the "now playing" display for internet radio can get totally out of sync
with what's playing? The audio is correct though.

I realise IR is not what this hi-res app is meant for, but I do use IR a
lot and thought my crappy (USB-wise) DAC sounded pretty good with it,
considering. Possibly people with good USB DACs might notice the same
anomaly, it's not always like that, just sometimes it goes there.


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[Triode]

cfraser wrote:
> Has anybody mentioned (or even found) that when set up for USB DAC that
> the "now playing" display for internet radio can get totally out of sync
> with what's playing? The audio is correct though.
>
> I realise IR is not what this hi-res app is meant for, but I do use IR a
> lot and thought my crappy (USB-wise) DAC sounded pretty good with it,
> considering. Possibly people with good USB DACs might notice the same
> anomaly, it's not always like that, just sometimes it goes there.
>
> Edit: I am running stock SB firmware plus this app, no other SW mods.

Don't see what would cause this as the changes are completely unrelated
to the squeezeplay application or display code. I suspect this is
unrelated.


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[tank121]

I've got an Mdac connected currently via Belden based coaxial. Will this
improve the sound? Any fellow Mdac owners running it?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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[Triode]

tank121 wrote:
> I've got an Mdac connected currently via Belden based coaxial. Will this
> improve the sound? Any fellow Mdac owners running it?
>

Works for me with MDAC- if you only want 44.1/48 kHz sample rate support
then you can try it with just a usb cable (A-B). If you want 96k
support then you will need an external hub. You can also add a usb
isolator - waiting for others to report back the sound quality
improvement (or otherwise) of this.


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[HumanMedia]

Just checking if I can install it over the top of Touch Toolbox 3.0?
Uninstall that first?


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[Triode]

HumanMedia wrote:
> Just checking if I can install it over the top of Touch Toolbox 3.0?
> Uninstall that first?

You are best to uninstall first - I've not looked at in detail, but I
think some of the TT modification for priories will conflict with the
app if you use usb output.


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[stereoptic]

Does a DAC need to be connected while the app is being installed? My
only DAC is the one built into my Marantz receiver (can accept up to
192k).


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[Triode]

stereoptic wrote:
> Does a DAC need to be connected while the app is being installed? My
> only DAC is the one built into my Marantz receiver (can accept up to
> 192k).

This is only necessary for usb based dacs - I assume this is not - just
install without dac and then select "Digital Output" to use the digital
output to the dac. Note when you do this, the analog output is not used
- you need to reset the output to Digital + Analog (which is the default
and won't do 192k) if you want analog to work.


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[HumanMedia]

Absolutely brilliant. Works to my Rega DAC.

Having problems locking at 176.4 but that is a known problem of the 1st
gen Rega DAC.
Locks at 192 perfectly for most material. One title - Casino Royale
soundtrack at 24-192 plays but drops out for a half second every 20
secs. About 10 other titles play fine at 192. I even have replaced
clocks and all is good.


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[Jeff Flowerday]

Great work Triode!


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[HumanMedia]

tank121 wrote:
> Is it better than coaxial though? Whatwould be the advantages for my
> Mdac
> If any?

You can play 176 and 192 kHz material. You can't do that now unless the
server down converts to 88 or 96 kHz first.


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[tank121]

Is it better than coaxial though? Whatwould be the advantages for my
Mdac
If any?


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[Triode]

tank121 wrote:
> Is it better than coaxial though? Whatwould be the advantages for my
> Mdac
> If any?

Assuming you are asking about usb - async usb could be better than spdif
for a given dac, it really depends on the dac. The theory is that
having the player clock locked to the dac (which is what async does)
provides a better conversion clock at the dac than recovering the clock
from the spdif interface. However it really comes down to how well each
of the interfaces is implemented in the dac. The fact that JohnW (Mdac
designer) considers it worthwhile should mean its useful for you to try.


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[Triode]

HumanMedia wrote:
>
> Edit: can't reproduce the signal lock drop
> Edit: intermittent signal drop noticed in other track which played fine
> before - not data related. Network bandwidth? Strength of output signal?

Do you see any underrun messages in the dmseg of the player? I'm
wondering if this is a loss of data data within the software side or
loss of clock lock on the spdif link.

Interested in other people's feedback on the 192k support as clearly
I've enabled something the hardware was not originally designed for.


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[SBGK]

I have some 192 files and have downsampled them to 96 to play them with
as wav files. Will I be able to tell the difference in sound quality if
playing them natively at 192 ?

after reading the link below I am confused about whether I would hear
any difference and also whether I am hearing any difference between
16/44 and 24/96 apart from different production quality.

I guess what I am asking is what are the sonic benefits of applying the
enhanced digital output mod ?

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


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[Triode]

SBGK wrote:
> I have some 192 files and have downsampled them to 96 to play them with
> as wav files. Will I be able to tell the difference in sound quality if
> playing them natively at 192 ?
>
> after reading the link below I am confused about whether I would hear
> any difference and also whether I am hearing any difference between
> 16/44 and 24/96 apart from different production quality.
>
> I guess what I am asking is what are the sonic benefits of applying the
> enhanced digital output mod ?
>
> http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

I suggest we keep discussion of the benefits of 192k to the relevant
thread on the audiophile forum. This thread is really to discuss the
capability of adding usb and 192k playback to touch.


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[lugui]

Hi,

I just purchase an Asus Xonar Essence one to work as a DAC for the
Touch. I installed this App and my finding is that it works as 'Digital'
using TOS Link. However, I have trouble using the USB Connection. I can
hear distorted sound only. Already I have updated the Touch to the
latest firmware.

Any way, I appreciate your effort and If I can make progress I will
report.

lugui


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[HumanMedia]

Triode wrote:
> Do you see any underrun messages in the dmseg of the player? I'm
> wondering if this is a loss of data data within the software side or
> loss of clock lock on the spdif link.
>
> Interested in other people's feedback on the 192k support as clearly
> I've enabled something the hardware was not originally designed for.

How do I check for underrun messages?
Do they get echoed to the SBT console?


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[goopie]

Sounds a very interesting app.

I use Soundcheck's Touch 3 mods and find it has an appreciable increase
in sound quality.

Is this app compatible with the Soundcheck mods?


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[Jeff Flowerday]

goopie wrote:
> Sounds a very interesting app.
>
> I use Soundcheck's Touch 3 mods and find it has an appreciable increase
> in sound quality.
>
> Is this app compatible with the Soundcheck mods?

As previously stated in this thread:

Triode wrote:
> You are best to uninstall first - I've not looked at in detail, but I
> think some of the TT modification for priories will conflict with the
> app if you use usb output.


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[goopie]

Thanks.

I did skip to the end of the thread without reading too much (naughty
naughty).


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[HumanMedia]

Is it my imagination or does the audio quality sound better with this
app, even on even lower sampling rates (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96) than the
stock SBT?
Could this be the case?


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[Covenant]

HumanMedia wrote:
> Is it my imagination or does the audio quality sound better with this
> app, even on even lower sampling rates (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96) than the
> stock SBT?
> Could this be the case?

That's what I found but I wanted someone to confirm it before I posted.
I installed it over TT3.0 without any problems. The combination sounds
brilliant to me.


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[Rbbert]

I'm having some trouble. My firmware is 7.7.2; the app appeared to
install correctly following all the steps outlined. Under audio settings
it is now "digital output only". Under "My Apps" it says there is
nothing installed, but in App Gallery it says it is installed. I go coax
out to an external DAC which supports 24/192, but when I try to play my
24/192 WAV files the DAC says 44.1 and the file plays back like a 192
file using a 44.1 sampling rate (i.e. very very slow).


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[terjehaa]

Rbbert wrote:
> I'm having some trouble. My firmware is 7.7.2; .........
> I go coax out to an external DAC which supports 24/192, but when I try
> to play my 24/192 WAV files the DAC says 44.1 and the file plays back
> like a 192 file using a 44.1 sampling rate (i.e. very very slow).

+1
Exact same issue here.


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[Triode]

Rbbert wrote:
> I'm having some trouble. My firmware is 7.7.2; the app appeared to
> install correctly following all the steps outlined. Under audio settings
> it is now "digital output only". Under "My Apps" it says there is
> nothing installed, but in App Gallery it says it is installed. I go coax
> out to an external DAC which supports 24/192, but when I try to play my
> 24/192 WAV files the DAC says 44.1 and the file plays back like a 192
> file using a 44.1 sampling rate (i.e. very very slow).

Wav files won't work at present above 96k as the LMS server and logitech
firmware does not support it. Suggest you try flac files or disabling
native playback of wav in the filetypes menu. [This should be fixed in
7.8]


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[terjehaa]

Triode wrote:
> Wav files won't work at present above 96k as the LMS server and logitech
> firmware does not support it. Suggest you try flac files or disabling
> native playback of wav in the filetypes menu. [This should be fixed in
> 7.8]

I have same issue with FLAC files :(
Haven't checked my settings in filetypes menu yet.


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[Triode]

terjehaa wrote:
> I have same issue with FLAC files :(
> Haven't checked my settings in filetypes menu yet.

I suspect you have native decode of flac disabled so that flac files get
converted to wav to send to the player. This won't work at present
either - will with 7.8, but at present you need to be able to send flac
to the player.


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[Rosewind]

Triode.

Thank you! I'll test this when I have a proper DAC in the houuse. I have
no idea if my lowly Aune DAC even supports 24/192.

Best wiishe,
Peter


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[SBGK]

Hi Triode

I get better sound quality with the following change to loadPriority in
file loadPriority.lua

/usr/share/jive/applets/EnhancedDigitalOutput/loadPriority.lua

loadPriority=1

sounds less harsh and thin.


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[Triode]

SBGK wrote:
> Hi Triode
>
> I get better sound quality with the following change to loadPriority in
> file loadPriority.lua
>
> /usr/share/jive/applets/EnhancedDigitalOutput/loadPriority.lua
>
> loadPriority=1
>
> sounds less harsh and thin.

Can we keep claims of improvements via parameter tweaks to the to the
audiophile board please. I would also suggest reading up on what the
parameter does before posting such as this. [In this case it is
implemented in AppletManger.lua - which if you read you will find it
changes the order in which applets are loaded, this does not impact the
audio path or scheduler at all]


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[SBGK]

Triode wrote:
> Can we keep claims of improvements via parameter tweaks to the to the
> audiophile board please. I would also suggest reading up on what the
> parameter does before posting such as this. [In this case it is
> implemented in AppletManger.lua - which if you read you will find it
> changes the order in which applets are loaded, this does not impact the
> audio path or scheduler at all]

does in my case sweety


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[koowat]

anyone try this with say DacMagic Plus or DacMagic 100 (async USB) ?
Also not sure about the USB DAC power up/down process - can someone
enlighten us? like do I turn on the DAC first then turn on the SBT? Can
I ever turn off the DAC then?

Which is the stablest LMS? 7.7.2? I'm still in the 7.5.x days since I'm
really paranoid about signal drops.

Thanks guys


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[Triode]

koowat wrote:
> anyone try this with say DacMagic Plus or DacMagic 100 (async USB) ?
>
Sorry can't comment.
>
> Also not sure about the USB DAC power up/down process - can someone
> enlighten us? like do I turn on the DAC first then turn on the SBT? Can
> I ever turn off the DAC then?
>
At present you need to turn the dac on first and connect it to the
Squeezebox Touch and then leave it on (otherwise you need to restart the
touch to find the dac if you power it off). However I am hoping to
improve this so you can turn the dac on and off.


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[lennyw]

koowat wrote:
> anyone try this with say DacMagic Plus or DacMagic 100 (async USB) ?
> Also not sure about the USB DAC power up/down process - can someone
> enlighten us? like do I turn on the DAC first then turn on the SBT? Can
> I ever turn off the DAC then?

So, I got it working via coax at 192 with my new Dacmagic 100. The USB
suffers from the USB1/2 situation (ie a hub is needed, which I don't
have -- BTW what's the cheapest way of doing this?), so I haven't tried
it.

Unfortunately, neither of my DACs (rDac & CA DM 100) seem to support
either a 16/176.4 or 24/176.4 signal. Pity, as this means I'll have to
drop them to 88.2, which I could do play without this app (not
complaining to triode of course).

Thanks for your work Triode.


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[Triode]

lennyw wrote:
> So, I got it working via coax at 192 with my new Dacmagic 100. The USB
> suffers from the USB1/2 situation (ie a hub is needed, which I don't
> have -- BTW what's the cheapest way of doing this?), so I haven't tried
> it.
>

Can't claim it to be the cheapest, but see:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?93310-Async-USB-Dac-Experiments-testers-wanted&p=688572&viewfull=1#post688572
which is available from amazon in the uk and I am sure many other places
- cost was £6.50 when I bought it, but looks to have gone up to £8 now.
I'm sure there are others but you should not need to spend more than
~10GBP.


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[soundcheck]

Hi Triode.

I'm gonna try your mod today.

I'm wondering if there's a way to mod certain snd-usb-audio params, such
as nrpacks?? Playing with that one led to pretty nice improvements on my
linux machines in the past.


Another one:

Since you recompile a new kernel. Have you played with the timer
frequency?? (The higher the better - at least on my Linux machines)


Cheers


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[Triode]

soundcheck wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there's a way to mod certain snd-usb-audio params, such
> as nrpacks?? Playing with that one led to pretty nice improvements on my
> linux machines in the past.
>
You should be able to access /sys/module/snd_usb_audio/parameters/ as
with other linux kernels. Was the previous experience with async usb
dacs or adaptive ones and did you have a usb isolator in the link?

>
> Since you recompile a new kernel. Have you played with the timer
> frequency?? (The higher the better - at least on my Linux machines)
>
Its the same as the standard Logitech kernel in this respect - which has
the RT patch set applied and high res timers enabled - not sure its
possible to make it more real time than this?


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[mollymoo]

hi, i am a novice when it comes to the requirements.

can you use a ps audio digital link III dac with this app?

thanks in advance.

molly


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[Kuro]

I bought a Touch today just because of this thread.

Superb sound going from my Touch to Anedio D2 DAC via USB. Listening to
the combo via my Stax headphones.

My applaud to Triode for his work.


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[koowat]

hi there, why would a hub be needed if you switch the DM100 to USB 2
mode? I'm a bit green in this field - thought my DM100 is asynch usb
already

lennyw wrote:
> So, I got it working via coax at 192 with my new Dacmagic 100. The USB
> suffers from the USB1/2 situation (ie a hub is needed, which I don't
> have -- BTW what's the cheapest way of doing this?), so I haven't tried
> it.
>
> Unfortunately, neither of my DACs (rDac & CA DM 100) seem to support
> either a 16/176.4 or 24/176.4 signal (though according the the arcam, it
> should -- from the manual "Coaxial 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz,
> 176.4kHz, 192kHz"). Pity, as this means I'll have to drop them to 88.2,
> which I could do play without this app (not complaining to triode of
> course).
>
> Thanks for your work Triode.


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[koowat]

using it with Coax -> DM 100 with LMS 7.7.2 playing 24/192 Tea for
Tillerman - working well!


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[sa3999]

Hi everyone

Trying this with the new Arcam FMJ D33 DAC and having some trouble
getting it to work with USB output. Hoping someone can point out what I
am doing wrong...

I have updated the firmware on the Touch to 7.7.2 and also the LMS is
now on 7.7.2. I have installed the App OK and the DAC is recognised by
the Touch when I plug it in. But when I select the USB output the Touch
just goes into an infinite loop of re-booting which can only be stopped
by pulling out the USB connection from the Touch. The Co-ax digital
output works fine with the app installed - problem appears to be just
with the USB output.

Any ideas what I may be doing wrong? Or is it likely to be the Arcam
D33?

I can try and post any information which the experts may find useful for
diagnosis.

Many Thanks


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[Triode]

sa3999 wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> Trying this with the new Arcam FMJ D33 DAC and having some trouble
> getting it to work with USB output. Hoping someone can point out what I
> am doing wrong...
>
> I have updated the firmware on the Touch to 7.7.2 and also the LMS is
> now on 7.7.2. I have installed the App OK and the DAC is recognised by
> the Touch when I plug it in. But when I select the USB output the Touch
> just goes into an infinite loop of re-booting which can only be stopped
> by pulling out the USB connection from the Touch. The Co-ax digital
> output works fine with the app installed - problem appears to be just
> with the USB output.
>
> Any ideas what I may be doing wrong? Or is it likely to be the Arcam
> D33?
>
> I can try and post any information which the experts may find useful for
> diagnosis.
>
> Many Thanks

It should work - the previous test versions were positively tested
against the D33, but its always possible I've introduced a new bug as I
have changed a few things. Are you comfortable sshing into the Touch.
Otherwise I'll ask another D33 user to see if they can test for us.


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[sa3999]

Triode wrote:
> It should work - the previous test versions were positively tested
> against the D33, but its always possible I've introduced a new bug as I
> have changed a few things. Are you comfortable sshing into the Touch.
> Otherwise I'll ask another D33 user to see if they can test for us.

Hello Triode, thanks for the prompt response.

I am relatively comfortable with ssh'ing into the Touch, but be warned
that I am no Linux expert..! Please let me know what you want me to do
and I'll be more than happy to see if I can give you the information you
are after.

Thx again.


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[sa3999]

Triode wrote:
> It should work - the previous test versions were positively tested
> against the D33, but its always possible I've introduced a new bug as I
> have changed a few things. Are you comfortable sshing into the Touch.
> Otherwise I'll ask another D33 user to see if they can test for us.

Hello Triode

Still no joy with the Arcam D33 - endless re-booting.

Any ideas what it might be or whether I can give you any information to
help get this working?

Many thanks


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[sa3999]

Hello Triode

Finally managed to get the Arcam D33 working with your App !

After much head-scratching, I decided to look on the Arcam website and
did an update of the firmware for the D33. Then back to square one with
the instructions for your App and Bingo (!) - its now working
beautifully with the class 2 USB input of the D33 (haven't tried class 1
yet). Guess that's one more DAC you can put on the success list.

Many, many thanks for making this available.

Rgds


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[leoduran]

sa3999 wrote:
> Hello Triode
>
> Still no joy with the Arcam D33 - endless re-booting.
>
> Any ideas what it might be or whether I can give you any information to
> help get this working?
>
> Many thanks

Perhaps not for the same reason as with your DAC, I was having 'reboot'
issues as well... and here's what I did to fix it:
- Disconnect DAC from Touch
- Update the LMS server to 7.7.2
- Configure Touch back to factory settings
- Update Touch to latest firmware (as prompted)
- Power-on the DAC, configure it for USB input, and connect to Touch via
USB
- Install Triode's app


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[Triode]

leoduran wrote:
> Perhaps not for the same reason as with your DAC, I was having 'reboot'
> issues as well...
>
To help me narrow down these issues can you confirm whether you had
previously had the UsbAudioOutput applet (usb experiment tread)
installed. Otherwise have you done a firmware upgrade since installing
the Enhanced Digital Ouput applet?

I can see one potential reboot problem with usb2 dacs, but want to check
which other ones may exist. I'll release an update to try to avoid
them.


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[Bytec]

Just tried this App!

It worked flawlessly with my CEntrance DACport (USB 24/96) and my DENON
AVR 1611B (TOSLink up to 192KHz).

Tank you!


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[bobertuk]

To add to the list of fully functioning DACs using Triodes plugin...

Lavry DA-10 coax & optical up to 24/196 (has no USB to try)

Bob


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[sa3999]

Triode wrote:
> To help me narrow down these issues can you confirm whether you had
> previously had the UsbAudioOutput applet (usb experiment tread)
> installed. Otherwise have you done a firmware upgrade since installing
> the Enhanced Digital Ouput applet?
>
> I can see one potential reboot problem with usb2 dacs, but want to check
> which other ones may exist. I'll release an update to try to avoid
> them.

Hello Triode

I can confirm that:

1. I did not have the UsbAudioOutput applet installed
2. I did the firmware upgrade for the D33 prior to installing the
Enhanced Digital Output applet.

Rgds


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[cfraser]

Seems to work with the Bryston BDA-1 DAC. Without the no-hub
workaround.
I am also happy that your app doesn't kill the ability of the SBT to
charge a PS3 controller lol [I think every device in my HT room has USB
port(s), yet only the PS3 and SBT will charge them].

I cannot see why anyone would actually *use* this DAC with USB input,
unless extremely desperate (which equates to the amount of effort
Bryston put into it, I guess their soothsayers were not up to par).


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[SBGK]

triode,

your digital out mod has made a fantastic difference to the sound
quality I am getting via sp/dif to a benchmark dac1 so it must be doing
something beneficial for sp/dif.

You say these mods are aimed at usb dacs, does this mean there are
further gains to be had if you did a sp/dif specific mod ?

Also, has anyone compared the quality of your mods via usb dac and via
sp/dif to dac ie if I get an asynchronous usb dac will it sound even
better ?

Anyway, congratulations again. I hope you get to appreciate how good the
digital out to sp/dif is now with your mods, it truly is breathtaking.

cheers


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[cfraser]

SBGK wrote:
> Also, has anyone compared the quality of your mods via usb dac and via
> sp/dif to dac ie if I get an asynchronous usb dac will it sound even
> better ?

You cannot do that at this point. You must choose the USB DAC (or the
USB input) and leave it connected/selected. Though I read what triode
said, this point did not make an "impact" until I tried it...


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[eiffel]

While I'm waiting for my long term DAC (Audiolab MDAC), I've tested this
plugin with an alternative USB DAC, the mighty Behringer UCA202.

It works great, even without a USB hub...

This being said there is little point in using this DAC as it only
supports 32,44.1 and 48kHz sample rates and is of the adaptive type (its
input is supposedly asynchronous). The DAC of the SBT is more capable
and is likely to sound better.


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[Triode]

koowat wrote:
> hi there, why would a hub be needed if you switch the DM100 to USB 2
> mode? I'm a bit green in this field - thought my DM100 is asynch usb
> already

If the dac is a usb audio class 2 device and connects to the Touch at
"high" speed then you don't need a hub. If however it is a usb audio
class 1 async dac and connects at "full" speed then you need a hub.
This is due to what appears to be a limitation of the hardware in the
Touch for the case of usb1 connected devices.

Easy way to know is to connect the dac and select it, then return to the
digital output page and select the dac again, this displays an info page
about the dac and at the top line it will says whether it is high or
full speed. The app should read this internally and only ask you about
the no hub option and display a warning about needing a hub if it sees
"full" speed.


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[lennyw]

Triode wrote:
> If the dac is a usb audio class 2 device and connects to the Touch at
> "high" speed then you don't need a hub. If however it is a usb audio
> class 1 async dac and connects at "full" speed then you need a hub.
> This is due to what appears to be a limitation of the hardware in the
> Touch for the case of usb1 connected devices.
>
> Easy way to know is to connect the dac and select it, then return to the
> digital output page and select the dac again, this displays an info page
> about the dac and at the top line it will says whether it is high or
> full speed. The app should read this internally and only ask you about
> the no hub option and display a warning about needing a hub if it sees
> "full" speed.

The info provided in the sw of the SBT recommends the addition of a hub,
or a reduction in the sf to 44.1/48. Telling the SBT to act as though
there is a hub just produces a lot of noise, either with the ground lift
switch up or down. So it'll definitely need a USB hub, not a huge cost
as the previous comments from Triode attest. I wonder how the addition
of the Hub might affect SQ, but I'm not going down this path, as my coax
can deliver 192, for the odd track that I actually have.

Returning to my 176.4 "problem", has anyone managed to output this SF
from the SBT to a DAC? It seems puzzling that the Arcam rDAC won't play
them, despite the manual/websites claiming that it can (over coax).


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[Bryan Jan]

Hi Triode,

Please advise whether 24/192 AIFF file is supported by your app. From
reading all the posts I only saw FLAC mentioned.


Please advise.


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[Triode]

Bryan Jan wrote:
>
> Please advise whether 24/192 AIFF file is supported by your app. From
> reading all the posts I only saw FLAC mentioned.
>

Yes if you have the server set to transcode them to flac by disabling
"native" playback in the filetypes menu. Otherwise not until 7.8.


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[Triode]

lennyw wrote:
> The info provided by the sw of the SBT recommends the addition of a hub,
> or a reduction in the sf to 44.1/48. Telling the SBT to act as though
> there is a hub just produces a lot of noise, either with the ground lift
> switch up or down. So it'll definitely need a USB hub, not a huge cost
> as the previous comments from Triode attest. I wonder how the addition
> of the Hub might affect SQ, but I'm not going down this path, as my coax
> can deliver 192, for the odd track that I actually have.
>

The main purpose of usb is to allow async usb operation which if the dac
is designed to use optimally could potentially lead to better sound
quality than spdif. However it depends on the dac. I doubt a hub would
compromise the sound quality - if you are concerned about the impact of
touch/hub on a usb dac then it would be worthwhile looking at usb
isolators.

However if you are happy with coax then keep using that!


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[Holzohr]

lennyw wrote:
> Returning to my 176.4 "problem", has anyone managed to output this SF
> from the SBT to a DAC? It seems puzzling that the Arcam rDAC won't play
> them, despite the manual/websites claiming that it can (over coax). Is
> there something in this plugin that might be preventing 176.4 from being
> delivered correctly?

I can send 176,4 via SBT (coax) to an ASUS Xonar Essence one and also my
T+A Music Player balanced does accept this.


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[CardioFitness]

Tried with a NAD M51 Dac and it music time slider wouldn't move with the
44.1k option, so the 192k with a hub shouldn't work too ?


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[koowat]

Hi Triode,

A big kudos - I'm curious (but not technically inclined) - what was the
magic? Was the SBT hardware sufficient to process a 24bit/192khz digital
throughput and just disabled by firmware? What does the app do in
another words? Im curious why Logitech did not include this feature.

As for the USB Audio Class 2 - I'm pretty sure the DM 100 is USB Audio
Class 2.0 - you can do this by pressing source when you turn the device
on (light should be on SPDIF 2 to indicate USB 2 mode) - do you need a
hub then? I'm based in UK so I can get the Harma hub but just didnt want
to add another interface.

Many thanks!!!
Triode wrote:
> If the dac is a usb audio class 2 device and connects to the Touch at
> "high" speed then you don't need a hub. If however it is a usb audio
> class 1 async dac and connects at "full" speed then you need a hub.
> This is due to what appears to be a limitation of the hardware in the
> Touch for the case of usb1 connected devices.
>
> Easy way to know is to connect the dac and select it, then return to the
> digital output page and select the dac again, this displays an info page
> about the dac and at the top line it will says whether it is high or
> full speed. The app should read this internally and only ask you about
> the no hub option and display a warning about needing a hub if it sees
> "full" speed.


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[Triode]

koowat wrote:
>
> As for the USB Audio Class 2 - I'm pretty sure the DM 100 is USB Audio
> Class 2.0 - you can do this by pressing source when you turn the device
> on (light should be on SPDIF 2 to indicate USB 2 mode) - do you need a
> hub then? I'm based in UK so I can get the Harma hub but just didnt want
> to add another interface.
>

If the digital output selection option did not ask you about using a hub
then it is probably class 2 as the dialog is intended to be inteligent
and only ask when required. Anyway go back to it and select the dac
again - it should show an info page for the usb dac and if the top line
include "high" speed then it is a class 2 dac and no hub is needed.
[usb 1 users will notice when a hub is needed as they will get periodic
clicks]


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[terjehaa]

Triode wrote:
> I suspect you have native decode of flac disabled so that flac files get
> converted to wav to send to the player. This won't work at present
> either - will with 7.8, but at present you need to be able to send flac
> to the player.

Thanks Triode, the filetypes was the clue.
I'm now playing a 387MB flac file with 24/192 music from my LMS server
over wifi to my Touch and then by coax to my Supernait.
Not a glitch!!!
Brilliant plug-in to a brilliant piece of HW, the SB Touch !


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[SteveCresswell]

Works fine with my Musical Fidelity M1 DAC
USB capability of this DAC is only to 48KHz but the sound via the coax
is definitely better, superb in fact.

A brilliant app!


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[dsdreamer]

Just wanted to say thanks for this accomplishment. I find the app works
well for 192kHz to a Rega DAC via SPDIF, and at 44.1, 88.2 and 96kHz via
a bus powered hub into an AudioEngine D1, and at 44.1kHz with no hub,
but the work-around switched on. I don't have any 48kHz music files to
test.

I would enjoy this even more if the DAC could be powered off at night
without requiring a hard reset to rediscover it when needed again. You
already mentioned that this is something you plan to work on, so I look
forward to that, while appreciating what I have now.


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[Triode]

terjehaa wrote:
> Just a quick question to finish off.... how does LMS know about the new
> high res capabilities of the modded Touch. so that it doesn't prosess
> the high res files to the sox treatment before sending it to the Touch?
The player tells LMS the fastest rate it can support when it connects to
the server. With the app and new kernel in place it should send 192k
rather than 96k if the output interface supports it.


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[Jacky]

Covenant wrote:
> That's what I found but I wanted someone to confirm it before I posted.
> I installed it over TT3.0 without any problems. The combination sounds
> brilliant to me.
Me too; just installed over TT3; Buffer will set back to 20.000, else no
otherwise sound deterioration, even a low improvement to TT3 , but needs

further comparisons.


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[JohnSwenson]

Hi Triode, I finally got around to trying this, it works fine with all
my USB DACs. Currently I don't have a DAC with 192 S/PDIF input so I
can't test that.

The only issue I have is that it's kind of painful to switch between USB
DACs. Once you gedt it working with say DAC A, you unplug power, plug in
DAC B then plug power back in, but now you get an indefinite spinny
saying DAC unconnected. You have to unplug power, plug in DAC A, plug in
power, bring up settings, switch to an internal mode, unplug power, swap
DACs, plug in power, go to settings, select new DAC. It's certainly
doable but it takes a LOT of reboots! It would be really nice if the
Unconnected DAC just went to the settings page and let you choose one of
the current devices.

Other than that, great job!

John S.


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[Triode]

JohnSwenson wrote:
>
> The only issue I have is that it's kind of painful to switch between USB
> DACs. Once you gedt it working with say DAC A, you unplug power, plug in
> DAC B then plug power back in, but now you get an indefinite spinny
> saying DAC unconnected. You have to unplug power, plug in DAC A, plug in
> power, bring up settings, switch to an internal mode, unplug power, swap
> DACs, plug in power, go to settings, select new DAC. It's certainly
> doable but it takes a LOT of reboots! It would be really nice if the
> Unconnected DAC just went to the settings page and let you choose one of
> the current devices.
>

When you get the spinney you can cancel it by touching the screen...
The idea at present is as soon as you power up the previously selected
dac that the box will reboot and use it. It needs to reboot as the jive
binary only selects an output device at startup.

Anyway I was thinking of changing it slightly to provide better support
for powering on and off the dac while touch is running (as used by one
of the beta testers). I was assuming people would tend to have one dac,
but would possibly want to power it on and off. So my plan was to
remove the spinny and treat a non existent dac as actually present.
This will mean more changes to jive_alsa which I think are viable but
I've not tried yet. The limitation I have is being able to make changes
to the jive_alsa binary but not jive itself.

Longer term if Logitech become interested then we can think about
changes to the jive binary to allow swapping output devices while
running. But that's not an option at present if we want full feature
support.


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[HumanMedia]

I noticed that there is a Remove option for the app in the app menu.
Does this completely remove all files and restore the stock kernel?


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[Triode]

HumanMedia wrote:
> I noticed that there is a Remove option for the app in the app menu.
> Does this completely remove all files and restore the stock kernel?

No - do this and then a stock firmware update to remove the custom
kernel - this will get you back to a standard installation.


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[Triode]

HumanMedia wrote:
> How do I check for underrun messages?
> Do they get echoed to the SBT console?

You need to ssh into the touch and type dmseg - don't worry if you don't
know what ssh is.


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[HumanMedia]

Triode wrote:
> You need to ssh into the touch and type dmseg - don't worry if you don't
> know what ssh is.

Will do. Note that after a reboot there is a message on the final line,
don't know if it is related to the app or not

CMD_RESP: cmd 0x801f error, result=0x1

But when the playback starts dropping out again I will check then.

Note that I think it may occur at a random period after I have selected
a 176khz file (which my version of my DAC is known to have troubles with
and doesn't play) and then Ive selected a 192 kHz files at sometime
after that.

I will try and get a repeatable pattern.


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[Jacky]

Will the custom kernel be "overwritten" by the additional installation
of TT3 and set off 192khz option or only some priorities replaced?

Anybody already tried?


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[WKB]

Will this work with the USB on the Young DAC ?


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[Triode]

WKB wrote:
> Will this work with the USB on the Young DAC ?

Don't know - does the Young dac support standard USB audio class 1 or 2
drivers (so works with the native drivers in osx or linux)?


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[SBGK]

Stunning sound quality out of the box, didn't realise it affected all
resolutions until I saw HumanMedia's post

Have added in TT3.0 and my own tweaks and sound is unbelievable. Haven't
tried 192 yet, but just 44.1 and 96 sounds superb. Surprised Logitech
allowed you to release it, it must blow the competition out of the
water.

priorities below

/$ ps -eo pid,tid,class,pri,rtprio,cmd | sort -nrk 4
Unknown HZ value! (86) Assume 100.
3 3 FF 139 99 [posixcputmr/0]
49 49 FF 138 98 [IRQ-34]
9 9 FF 137 97 [sirq-tasklet/0]
11 11 FF 136 96 [sirq-hrtimer/0]
410 410 FF 135 95 [loadavg]
764 764 FF 134 94 jive_alsa -d hw:CARD=TXRX -c default -b 92790
-p 4 -s 24 -f 1
407 407 FF 133 93 [IRQ-25]
5 5 FF 132 92 [sirq-timer/0]
7 7 FF 131 91 [sirq-net-rx/0]
6 6 FF 131 91 [sirq-net-tx/0]
416 416 FF 130 90 [IRQ-45]
356 356 FF 130 90 [IRQ-7]
264 264 FF 130 90 [IRQ-33]
258 258 FF 130 90 [IRQ-57]
125 125 FF 130 90 [IRQ-42]
12 12 FF 129 89 [sirq-rcu/0]
10 10 FF 129 89 [sirq-sched/0]
8 8 FF 129 89 [sirq-block/0]
4 4 FF 129 89 [sirq-high/0]
367 367 FF 76 36 [IRQ-47]
158 158 FF 41 1 [unionfs_siod/0]
156 156 FF 41 1 [kswapd0]
155 155 FF 41 1 [pdflush]
154 154 FF 41 1 [pdflush]
153 153 FF 41 1 [krcupreemptd]
130 130 FF 41 1 [kmmcd]
109 109 FF 41 1 [khubd]
90 90 FF 41 1 [kblockd/0]
17 17 FF 41 1 [khelper]
16 16 FF 41 1 [events/0]
14 14 FF 41 1 [desched/0]
2 2 FF 41 1 [kthreadd]
425 425 TS 24 - [ubifs_bgt0_2]


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[stereoptic]

Triode wrote:
> This is only necessary for usb based dacs - I assume this is not - just
> install without dac and then select "Digital Output" to use the digital
> output to the dac. Note when you do this, the analog output is not used
> - you need to reset the output to Digital + Analog (which is the default
> and won't do 192k) if you want analog to work.
Thanks for the response!


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[magiccarpetride]

Triode wrote:
> Please post your feedback on this thread - I would like to create a list
> of USB DACs which are known to work with it, we started that on the
> experiment thread, but I think it would be cleaner to maintain a list
> here.

I haven't installed your applet yet, but I do have a question: my
understanding is that this enhancement will also be beneficial to those
of us who are using digital coaxial output to an outboard DAC. If that's
correct, I will install your enhancement and will, if you'd like me to,
report back on my impressions regarding any changes it brings to the
digital coax output into an outboard DAC.

But before I do that, I'd like to clarify whether lower sampling rates
(mp3 etc.) will be affected by this change? I understand that your
enhancement will elevate SBT to higher resolutions, such as 192 kHz, but
will it in any adverse way affect lower, lossy resolutions? I'm asking
this because my wife likes to listen to the lossy internet radio via
SBT.


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[Triode]

magiccarpetride wrote:
> I haven't installed your applet yet, but I do have a question: my
> understanding is that this enhancement will also be beneficial to those
> of us who are using digital coaxial output to an outboard DAC. If that's
> correct, I will install your enhancement and will, if you'd like me to,
> report back on my impressions regarding any changes it brings to the
> digital coax output into an outboard DAC.
>
> But before I do that, I'd like to clarify whether lower sampling rates
> (mp3 etc.) will be affected by this change? I understand that your
> enhancement will elevate SBT to higher resolutions, such as 192 kHz, but
> will it in any adverse way affect lower, lossy resolutions? I'm asking
> this because my wife likes to listen to the lossy internet radio via
> SBT.

I'm not really sure it is for you - its main target was usb audio and
192k support. By default it won't do anything differnet from the output
routing function of TT3 - all it will do is send the audio to the
digital output and not the analog output. This bypasses a software
layer and will mean that some internet radio stations don't play at the
right rate if your dac can't support them.


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[magiccarpetride]

Triode wrote:
> I'm not really sure it is for you - its main target was usb audio and
> 192k support. By default it won't do anything differnet from the output
> routing function of TT3 - all it will do is send the audio to the
> digital output and not the analog output. This bypasses a software
> layer and will mean that some internet radio stations don't play at the
> right rate if your dac can't support them.

Thanks. I do have some 192k files in my library, curious to see/hear if
your mod will make them sound any different...


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[magiccarpetride]

Triode wrote:
> I'm not really sure it is for you - its main target was usb audio and
> 192k support. By default it won't do anything differnet from the output
> routing function of TT3 - all it will do is send the audio to the
> digital output and not the analog output. This bypasses a software
> layer and will mean that some internet radio stations don't play at the
> right rate if your dac can't support them.

This is slightly off topic, but the unintended side effects of
installing your app are that, to me, digital output via spdif now sounds
better than the 'vanilla' out-of-the-box SBT digital out. For what it's
worth, I'm enthusiastically recommending this upgrade to anyone who's
using digital output to an outboard DAC. All formats seem to benefit
from the upgrade (including lossy mp3).

Plus, the installation couldn't be easier:) Thanks Triode -- very
professional job!


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[ltsv38]

Triode wrote:
> I've posted a new applet to the 3rd party apps list for Squeezebox
> Touch. This is designed to enhance the digital output capabilities of
> the device for use with external Dacs.

Congratulation Triode

Actually my Touch is feeding a my digital loudspeaker management system
witch is limited to 24bit/96kHz. Perhaps in a near future I will find a
new processor with 192k support?

I have also a Squeezebox Duet Receiver (limited to 48k):
_do_you_think_it's_possible_to_adapt_your_applet_to_the_Receiver?_
The goal will be to support of 88.2 and 96k playback via the Receiver
digital output.

Thanks


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[Jeff Flowerday]

ltsv38 wrote:
>
> I have also a Squeezebox Duet Receiver (limited to 48k):
> _do_you_think_it's_possible_to_adapt_your_applet_to_the_Receiver?_
> The goal will be to support of 88.2 and 96k playback via the Receiver
> digital output.
>
>

Receiver doesn't run linux, so the answer would be no.


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[Bytec]

I intend to try out this app, but how do I uninstall it if I want to?
Factory reset of SB Touch?


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[terjehaa]

Bytec wrote:
> I intend to try out this app, but how do I uninstall it if I want to?
> Factory reset of SB Touch?

See this post earlier in this thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94512-Announce-Enhanced-Digital-Output-app-USB-Dac-and-192k-Digital-Ouput&p=699997&viewfull=1#post699997


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